Tesla Founders Blog

strange indeed. i could understand if it needs to run while charging… but even when it’s doing nothing?? wtf? it’s not that the’ve built in a nuclear reactor, right?
btw, doesn’t it have a 80%-only charging feature? maybe this could help to be more often below the 50% charge level during normal use. or can you tweak the contoller software yourself? hack it!

martin sez:

And I am sure hacking the controller will have some negative impact on my warranty!

I must say I assumed that thermal issues and related power loads had all been ironed out:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=43

Presumably all of this at-rest cooling must be via passive conduction and radiation since the fans on the radiators don’t kick in (thank God!). But is the system fixed on a setting for summer-sunshine-at-noon rather than your garage at night?

(You’d think that with all the controls for night time recharging that the car would know what time of day it is! Also, summer sunshine heats up every part of the car, so any parking-lot cooling would need to be active; pump, fans, the works.)

Or is the problem one of uncertainty; measuring inlet and outlet coolant temperatures only gives an average and not the ESS core temp, hence the over-chill?

Or has the car got its settings confused; I know that it has a “Storage” setting. How does the pump run under this?

I’m not sure I understand why a fully charged battery needs continual cooling, whereas a half-empty one doesn’t. Below half-charge/cool ESS seems to be way too extravagant for a cut-off point anyway. I believe the ESS has considerable thermal mass; once it’s cool, it’s cool. Yet the pump will keep discharging a full battery until it meets its own shut-down criteria! Crazy!

Is there any way to turn off the present charge-level-dependent setting and make it temperature-dependent only? Can this be done manually or is it all in software? Even a simple external timer controlling the d.c. supply to the pump would help. Turn off the key or lock the car and, say, five minutes later, the pump stops.

After all that work and all those patents it’s a bit embarrassing that the technical triumph that is the Tesla ESS gets undermined by such a dumb pump control system.

What about the computer systems? Do they shut down when the car is parked or hibernate or remain on stand-by?

Martin sez:

I can’t tell for sure. I guess the electronics hibernate to some extent, but I don’t know if the wasted energy is all pump, or if a significant portion of that 146 watts is other electronics. I could find out by getting into the car and installing some internal power monitors. But I am not sure how to do that without messing with the warranty.

Martin,

how is the cooling system on the ESS controlled? Is it by software that turns the coolant system on & off dependent on the SOC of the ESS, or is it triggered by (a) thermal sensor(s) buried inside the ESS? From what you have written, it sounds like it is the former case…
If it is software, couldn’t you suggest to TM that they rewrite the line or two of code that triggers the coolant system to switch on (i.e. lower the SOC threshold)?
If it is the latter case (with sensors), is it possible that your car contains a faulty sensor?

Lastly, and I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist (how many people out there are thinking “Too late, Chris!” ), do you know if any of the other cars that have been delivered have been experiencing the same phenomenon, or is it just your car? What I’m asking is “Is this the normal operating condition of the TR, or is it peculiar to your car?”

It’s too bad that a subsystem that was designed to maximize the lifespan of the ESS may actually end up shortening it, and causing additional warranty issues to boot! There has to be some way to optimize the efficiency and lifespan of the ESS without doing a complete redesign…

Also, I wonder if TM is analyzing the energy usage of the production vehicles as closely as you are, or whether that is no longer a priority at TM 2.0? For the past year or so their focus seems to have shifted more to the “performance” side of the Roadster, and away from the “efficiency” side.

Anyway, thanks for the new post.

All the best,

Chris H.

Your story attributes the “while parked” energy usage primarily to the pump, but couldn’t it be a lot of other things besides the pump itself? Aren’t there a bunch of monitoring computers running in the ESS? Doesn’t the system use the electric A/C compressor to cool the coolant when it thinks the batteries are too hot?

Martin wrote:
“…Doing the math, the pump draws about 146 watts all day long…”

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say “during the 4 days it sat, the car effectively used 146 watts all day long…”
Since the meter just measured total energy use, I suppose that the car might have been doing some bursty current draw that you couldn’t track (if for instance the A/C activated in the middle of a hot day for a while), so pointing the finger solely at the pump seems a bit of a premature conclusion.

My RangerEV has an electric coolant pump that runs constantly when the truck is powered on, and may activate sometimes when hooked to the charger, but never when the truck is off and unplugged. The factory pump had brushes (yuck) which wore down in some years, and so I replaced the pump with this one which is reported to use approx 1 amp at 12v which is only 12 watts. It provides approx 4 GPM which is enough to cool the Ranger charger, inverter, eMotor, etc. Would the Roadster need a pump that uses 10x the current of this popular Bosch pump? I suspect something else is using the power besides the pump itself.

Martin said:
# “But the A/C compressor remains off, so the car is not trying to remove heat.”

And back here, Martin said:
# If the pack gets too warm, the car fires up the A/C compressor and cools the liquid down via a heat exchanger. In practice, this happens quite seldomly, as the battery has a large heat mass and does not change temperature quickly with air temperature changes. Obviously, this use of the A/C discharges the car a little bit, and the car won’t do it of the battery is too low.

So do you know for sure if the A/C stayed off the whole 4 days you had it plugged in? I think I recall one Tesla blog where they said the A/C would kick in the cool the ESS if it got really hot outside even if the car wasn’t moving.

The Tesla FAQ says “…the Energy Storage System (ESS) has a heater that will keep the batteries warm in a cold climate.” So, along with the A/C for cooling, perhaps the ESS heater is activating at night?

By the way – are there any accessories that could have been left on by mistake and used some power? Do the seat heaters operate when the key is out of the ignition (another ICE based term!)?

Martin sez:

True, it could be other electronics drawing power, but 145 watts is a lot, and I can’t think of any electronic subsystems in the car that draw anything near that much. A computer in the car might draw as much as 25 watts when it’s fully-on and running, much, much less when shut down.

Surely the onboard computer keeps some sort of log of when things get turned on and off and a few days archive wouldn’t be unreasonable – might be time for a trip to Menlo Park?

Martin sez:

They did also pull the log files from my car each time, and I assume they analyzed them for abnormalities.

How about duplicating your test after reaching in and pulling the connector on the pump itself?

Martin sez:

Aside from warranty issues, the pump is hard to reach. I think the right rear wheel arch has to come out…

Martin,

you could just pull the fuse (does the TR have a fuse box? I imagine that it does…) to disable the pump, but the main issue would still be the impact on warranty coverage.
ATB,
Chris.

I think we may know how much of those 146 watts is from the water pump.

From the teslamotors blogs, http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=57

“We’ve developed low-standby-load infotainment systems, e.g. the computers onboard the Tesla Roadster draw roughly the same power as the laptop I’m using to write this blog.”

I googled the power consumption of laptops, and it sounds like they consume around 50 watts or so on average. I’d assume that when the car is off, the Roadster would use even less than “the same power as the laptop I’m using to write this blog.”

So…the majority of those 146 watts must be from the pump.

Martin sez:

But we agree – the bulk of the energy has got to be that pump.

Also- why this is almost as bad as a faulty transmission. I say fire Musk, this is the last straw!

Reknowned Porsche tuner RUF introduces an ALL ELECTRIC Porsche 911!

Link below:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/electric-911

Seems teslambo.com now has real competition.

Hate to stir up bad memories, but could a heat sensor or maybe some wiring gotten damaged when your car was being, er… test driven? If yours is the only car doing this (should be easy to find out), maybe something got damaged and not repaired correctly.

See Ben, now that’s thinking. Everyone else here wanted to rip the car apart, unplug stuff and pull fuses.

My solution, which I restrained myself from suggesting, was to pull the whole damn pump and let it run on the desk with a meter attached.

Of course! Simple idea!

Though I don’t think the Roadster has a automatic “recharge to 50% capacity” option unless you recharge from “empty”, watch the meter and deliberately interrupt the recharge at an appropriate moment, say after 10kWh. So setting up a known starting charge level will just be a bit more of a game, that’s all.

Or you could get close and just sit and wait for the pump to stop it’s incessant gurgling, then start the clock. But this assumes that the pump cut-off is set exactly for 50% charge. Which you could only check if you first did another full recharge right after the pump stops

Martin sez:

I was thinking I could use the storage mode in the charge settings. I think this charges to 50%.

I want to know what Cocconi’s t-Zero did per this pump deal-he had like two t-Zeros (or was it three?) running for like a year, or more (?), didn’t he? What was the deal with those cars re. this?

Martin sez:

Note that all three tzeros were built as lead-acid cars. Two were sold to customers, one remained the property of AC Propulsion. I financed AC Propulsion to convert their tzero to use Li Ion cells, and was in their shop, looking over their shoulders throughout the conversion. (As far as I know, the other two tzeros are still lead-acid cars.) When it was completed, I drove the li ion tzero as my daily driver for about 3 months. This experience led me to conclude that air cooling (at least at the air velocity used in the tzero) was inadequate, and a major increase in cooling system would be required for a production car.

TEG- you must have been in the original , later one (or ones ?)- I forget number)- like Martin tested, obviously, were Li-ion. Wonder what they did re. this cooling/pump issue ? Also, ya know, if pump cooling really equals 2 refrigerators then: refrigerate the batteries rather than pump fluid thru small tubes: ?

Martin sez:

I’m not sure where you would put the two refrigerators on the car – the trunk is way too small

Irrespective of possible bad blood it seems it would be in the best interest of present Tesla management to fess up to bugs and defects. Martin is correct that it may actually be heating when the ESS approaches ambient; friction, motor windings and don’t forget the self-heating in the ESS itself because current is being drawn.
It’s foolish to try to hide a bug or defect behind a “normal operation” safe haven. Consumers want answers and solutions…..not a denial. This is especially true in a concept that’s supposed to be promoting efficiency through sound engineering. It’s a little like designing a low energy outdoor light with proximity detection but no provision to turn it off during the day. Waste is waste.

Many people have stated in this blog’s comments things like “I’m not sure I understand why a fully charged battery needs continual cooling, whereas a half-empty one doesn’t.”

The answer seems pretty obvious to me. But let’s back up a bit. I love how EV people like to say that a Li-Ion battery is no more dangerous than a tank of gas. Driving, perhaps. But when I pull into my garage at night with a tank of gas, I am 100% confident that I didn’t fill up with “defective gas” that may spontaneously catch fire four hours later. You cannot say that about Li-Ion batteries. If one passes QC, but has a small defect inside, and all the rattling and vibration pushes it over the edge, you could park it, and a few hours later… it vents and catches fire.

The problem is that if it’s fully charged, then there is the very real possibility that such an event may catch the neighbor cell(s) on fire, and pretty soon you have the entire thing go up in flames. The way to prevent this is to have the cooling system on, all the time. ALL THE TIME.

You don’t need the cooling system on all the time if the state of charge (SOC) is below, say, 50%, as if a cell with <50% SOC fails, it probably won’t have enough energy in it to set off its neighbors (the exact SOC below which it’s safe obviously depends on the system design, and it’s obvious to me that for Tesla they feel this is 50%).

So why not monitor all the temps and if one area gets hot while parked, THEN turn on the pump? Answer: because these events happen very quickly, and you just can’t stop it in time.

So, there’s the answer. If Tesla, a fairly risk-tolerant company doesn’t feel that it’s safe to leave a fully charged car parked without coolant flowing, exactly who at GM is going to sign off on such a concept?

Ken
Please have a read of http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf

An individual cell cannot “set off” any of its neighbors no matter what charge it holds.

Nice try.

That’s an interesting theory Ken, but are you confident that a slow circulation of fluid would mitigate a cell failure? My understanding is that these are fulminating events — the cell’s energy is dissipated in a matter of seconds. Surely the cooling system is not designed or capable of removing localized heat at anywhere near that rate?

As far as an explanation, I’m still sticking with “flaw”

Like Totally Tubular!

In case “granted” isn’t the right term, I see that patent listed as issued and published on October 7th, 2008.
It was originally filed on July 18, 2007…

I’m sure Martin would love to jump into this discussion and shed some light on just how thermally isolated each cell is within the ESS, but I’m pretty sure that it is proprietary information that is owned by Tesla Motors, and he doesn’t need a lawsuit landing in his lap… Am I close???

ATB,

Chris.

Here is a 90watt waterpump that claims to move enough water to cool a 5 liter v8.

Is the Roadster just pumping fluid through a radiator, or is it running a compressor/condenser/evaportator which would likely take more power?

Martin sez:

There is no radiator on the Roadster. The compressor does not run once the car has cooled down from a drive.

@Steve

There has been confirmation of some sort of deal with Daimler (who owns Benz ect.) The rumormill has it that the ESS tech and controller tech will be put in into the 2nd gen SMART ED (Electric Drive). While Tesla’s involvement with SMART has not been confirmed , it has which has been confirmed that the 2nd Gen SMART ED will use Li-Ion, at least as of my last readings. They are shooting for an Electric SMART with 200+ miles of city range, essentially ignoring the highway problem of extended range because the SMART isn’t the ideal car for roadtrips anyway.

# Martin wrote:
## There is no radiator on the Roadster. The compressor does not run once the car has cooled down from a drive.

Looking at the patents it appears that the ‘battery pack’ coolant may be able to take different paths (”DIV VLVE”=’diverter valve’?)
Traditional radiators tend to have good flow (relatively easy work for the pump to push the coolant through), but the Roadster seems to have an assortment of heat exchangers, evaporators, compressors and such that may mean the pump is having to work harder than one would if it was just going through a radiator. Also without a radiator, it doesn’t seem like running the pump would have a whole lot of an effect if the compressor isn’t also running. So, are you saying that you think the pump is needlessly running and circulating coolant in a way that isn’t even cooling anything? Or are you saying that the cooling system is running to cool something down that probably doesn’t need to be cooled anymore?

Hi Martin, You’ve given me insight into Tesla before and I’m hoping to get your thoughts on Elon Musks’s blog post yesterday outlining the changes going on at Tesla.
Regards,
Mary Kathleen Flynn, Senior Editor/Senior Video Producer, The Deal & Tech Confidential
mflynn@thedeal.com

So, I’m still not 100% sure, but let me see if I have this correct: There’s no radiator, so the only way to remove heat from the ESS is through the A/C. The A/C compressor runs to cool the batteries when charging and when in normal operation, as well as for a short time after a drive until the ESS comes down to ambient temperature. However, it appears that the poor coolant pump continues running all the time. Correct? What did I miss there?

# Harry wrote:
## “…What did I miss there?…”

You basically summarized my questions.

Something else though – I am not sure about this – but there may be more than one compressor. There is the main A/C compressor that runs the cabin A/C for “cabin comfort”, but there might be another compressor just for the battery pack cooling system. I am fairly sure that there is a large A/C condenser up front and perhaps a much smaller one above the wheel well in back. I am not sure if the two are interconnected or separate. I am not sure if there is one A/C compressor to run both systems or two separate compressors. Martin seems hesitant to go into the details. I don’t know if this is due to concerns over proprietary information, or just lack of detailed knowledge. I would think he would be intimately familiar with these sort of details, but perhaps we was more “high level” when running the company?

Martin sez:

There is only one compressor.

I think Martin was more focused on the drivetrain; the motor, the PEM, and especially the ESS. The other, more conventional, systems could be left to others.

BTW, Steve, I think the “Door Sill Architect” title is very funny, and apt.

Chris

# Martin wrote:
## Regarding freezing: the coolant is radiator fluid – its freezing point is well below zero degrees centigrade. And it has not been even close to that temperature here in California all summer…

Yeah – I figured it is radiator fluid (probably ethylene or propylene glycol in some mix with water), and that you haven’t seen freezing with the Roadster, but I also thought there is a very slight chance that someone could “over-engineer” the pump controls for “worst case” behavior (sub freezing temps) and do it without a temp sensor. In other words just leave it running “just in case” even if the temps aren’t low (or high) enough to matter. This is just speculation of another possibility, but I don’t even think it is likely. The “only when above 50% charge” suggestion really points a finger at safety concerns. Being ready to redistribute any heat from a burning cell all around to the rest of the pack. The fact that the A/C compressor doesn’t run suggests it is not about trying to cool the whole pack, but rather just to even out the temperatures. I don’t know if if is for cell failure safety, or just an effort to try to keep the whole pack at uniform temp so that they cells age evenly. Thoughts about protecting from freezing, or avoiding corrosion on pumps parts, or stuff like that are just long shot random guesses.

And wouldn’t it be silly if, at the end of the day, it all turns out just to be a fault with your particular car and not an intentional design?

By the way, this picture gives some view inside one of the rear wheel wells. Is that the heat exchanger in front of the brake disc? (The one with the 2 green tubes hanging down)? Another photo with a possible glimpse at some of the ‘plumbing’. Hey maybe we can get ‘Joe the plumber‘ to take a look!

So many “efficiency vs X” decisions –
* should the “toe-in” be for efficiency or handling?
* should the coolant pump be optimized for high efficiency or longevity?
* should the pump turn off sooner to save charge in the batteries or be left on to have some conservative precautionary measure to protect the batteries?

Someone probably made these decisions using some logic. There must have been meetings to discuss coolant pump behavior logic. So you don’t even know who made the decision to make it operate like this? It must be very odd (understatement) to have designed or specified so much of the car, and then be left wondering about little details like this without the ability to get someone to give you a definitive answer!

Pumps seem to be a common problem as we shift motive power. In Tesla’s case, 2008 from I.C.E. to electric.

Exactly 100 years ago in 1908, the first Ford Model T rolled off the assembly line signaling a shift in motive power from steam to I.C.E. Their biggest problem? A pump, or rather a lack of a pump. What the hell is a fuel pump?

The first two years of Model T’s were gravity fed fuel systems so when an extended hill of more than a 5% grade were driven on, the engine would starve from lack of fuel and quit. Drivers quickly developed “a work around” for the problem. They drove the Model T’s up the hill backwards in reverse thus feeding the engine it’s fuel.

The next year, clever engineers figured out the fuel pump.

So Martin, hey, it’s a definite snag for sure, but you don’t have to drive your Tesla up the hills in reverse!
Progress has its ups and downs pardon the pun.

A motive change greater than the Model T is upon us.

Cheers
Peder

Martin sez:

Don’t get e wrong, the Roadster is a fun car to drive and a milestone in the history of cars. Were I still part of Tesla, I’d work this pump problem out with the engineering team. That path is no longer open to me; few paths into Tesla are.

Wait Martin-you forgot the important path still open-remember you are on the official “Tesla Advisory Board”- and now you’re not alone:” hereeeee’s D’rori !” Also “hereeee’s a recession !”-affecting silicon valley too. A Washington Post article gave a history of a big, key factor in this: back in 1998 a high level govt. regulator with some regulatory branch, dealing with Greenspan and Rubin of the fed. reserve said , in effect : “these new-fangled derivatives, debt swaps etc. are growing like crazy-we don’t know how much money is involved, who has them or what they’re about-this is dangerous-we need some regulation”. Greenspan and other fed. officials/Wall Streeters said “no, this shouldn’t be regulated-bad for free markets-these are the latest things, it’s good to push a new financial venue”. As they grew this regulator wouldn’t back down-over years as derivatives grew- she kept saying it was dangerous. Finally Greenspan & Co. said- ” o.k., might be good to regulate, but it’s too late-could be lawsuits”-I guess because buyers of these debt swaps would find out, thru regulation, that there wasn’t enough cash on hand to back them up. So the good regulator said: “o.k.- then let’s make it so the old derivatives are exempt from regs. but any new ones aren’t”. But Greenspan & Co. didn’t even go for this. The good regulator tried for years to change things-including meetings with the top people in congress, like Richard Lugar. So the problem, and the potential for huge trouble, WAS clearly known about years in advance, at the top . But, in true Reagan “trickle down ” form, the rich were allowed to get richer-”seeking even better yields” is what it was all about-they weren’t happy with just reality- based rates of return, they wanted some clever new “financial instruments” like packaged mortgage CDO’s or whatever and derivatives. Yet McCain said Obama “wants to wage class warfare”. Too late John, the “greed is good” rich crowd already started the war-it’s being waged right now on all the rest of us-while the halibutheads (also known as WWMED’s: Walking Weapons of Mass Economic Destruction) that started the war walk off with their vast fortunes no matter what-”spoils of war and all of that”. Of course another component of “coddle the rich at all costs, maybe something will trickle down” theory is that until very recently the federal minimum wage hadn’t been raised for years on end-something like 15 years, or even more, if I remember right. Two appropriate wartime theme songs songs come to mind: “Piggies” by Harrison and “Too Many People” by McCartney.

Martin sez:

I am actually not on the advisory board either. Have not been since February.

Thank you Steve! I appreciate the correction.

I think Ford and the 1908 Model T were given just due as the first assembly line auto, and thus my reference to changing the motive power, not to mention independent travel.

In 1903 the I.C.E. engine also changed the world and made possible powered flight at Kitty Hawk.

I cannot begin to imagine the ways that transportation will change in the near future with the coming change in motive power.

When Chevy says “that if those guys can do that in a garage in California, we can damn well do it Chevy”… and then all the other car companies jump on board, I go backward in the current chain of domino’s and the first one down is Martin and Tesla.

Speaking of Tesla, I see Elon has made another CEO move.

Cheers
Peder
I know that is debatable and that history has many authors, just my opinion:)

Hey, it’s really bad to get the wrong year in the wine world as well!

Cheers
peder

TM apparently responded to Martin’s “pump always on” concerns on their owners forum. Some of that response can be found here. It basically confirms some of the speculation that it is intentionally left on for battery safety reasons.

Martin sez:

I also wonder if this constant pump energy is accounted for when Tesla computes its energy usage for the EPA-mandated window sticker. I don’t think the EPA testing protocol will catch this constant energy consumption. I think that test requires the car to be fully charged, then immediately driven over the specified driving cycle, then immediately charged again to measure its energy usage. If true, such a test would miss something like 22% of the energy consumed by the car. (Note that as a very early car, mine came without any window sticker.)

Martin, I’m beginning to wonder what’s more important, the technology or the ego battle? With you as the most important guy in getting this technology started, it would seem a shame to see it get sunk by pettiness. Some of us sounded off in the owners forum when you were “expelled” and got a change in that decision. But now you seem not to have appreciated that gesture, but want to use the more public forum to play gotcha. Don’t get me wrong, the pump issue is important and the reaction in the owners forum was quick and got a quick response from the company. But the two sides are talking past each other instead of to each other. That isn’t going to help the situation get resolved. The sandbox fight has gone on long enough, wouldn’t you say? We get it, you don’t like each other. But you are now performing an important role, super user, with the ability and capability to get problems out early and to work for resolution. Isn’t that the most important thing? I would bet that the rest of the owners think so. I would hope most of the owners are more worried about the basic technology than where their IPOD is going to plug in or where they can place their lattes (most may only be 51% considering what gets discussed.) One of the blogs compared the roadster to a Model T in terms of technology and that’s what I see. We’re buying into the leading edge of a technology we all hope leads to a generic solution for the planet. That’s more important than a Sumo ego battle. Sorry for the rant. It’s been building up for awhile.

Martin sez:

I do appreciate the support that you and others have given me since my ouster. It is hard for me to express how much your support has meant on some of my darker days. Please understand that your car will be a better car if this problem gets resolved. Please also understand that I did not get any satisfaction with more direct and discreet approaches to solving it.

P.S. (part of a song there, one not on the list too)-topic for scientific research: just where in the brain is this kind of awesome musicality hiding out ? -### end of off topic.

Martin,

Now that you’ve had your car for a while, can you comment on whether or not “range anxiety” is a big concern? Has your experience with the Roadster changed your feeling about range-extended EV’s (i.e. the Chevy Volt)?

Martin sez:

The only exception is if I am going to let the car sit someplace for a while. Then I worry a lot about that danged pump sucking up my charge.

Hang on, how did we get to explode?

I know that back in Nov 2006 Martin and JB blogged: “At Tesla Motors one of our key inventions to maximize battery lifetime is a sophisticated liquid cooling system that maintains a favorable temperature for the batteries, even under extreme ambient conditions. Our cooling system engages to try and keep the temperature of the cells below 35° C at all times and the lifetime average temperature at or below 25° C. The other significant factor that affects calendar aging is the charge state of the battery during storage. At higher charge states cells lose capacity faster. This is a second reason why we have limited our maximum state of charge to 4.15V/cell instead of 4.2V/cell. We also offer the driver the option of charging to only 3.8V/cell (~50 percent) or 4.10V/cell (~90 percent) to further extend calendar life if the full vehicle range is not needed on the next few trips. We advise and encourage a full (4.15V/cell) charge only when it is needed.” http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39

Have those temperature values since been revised downward?

A Japanese co. is working on Li-ion batteries for storage of home solar power that were 40 times more powerful as laptop ones-maybe this will be a safer battery, as well as “safety in less numbers”.

Martin sez:

I sincerely doubt that any larger cell would be more safe, unless it had substantially lower energy density. Simply put, a larger cell contains more flammable material, and so will burn longer and hotter.

Well yeah, and would a venting event compromise the fluid flow? In other words could it rupture the coolant lines and start a leak?
I still don’t know if the flow is in parallel or serial through the pack. From the picture I linked before it sure looks like typical plastic or rubber lines are used (at least externally). I suppose another basic question – is the fluid flow left on for the case where a cell spontaneously malfunctions, or is it there in case something more catastrophic happens like a parked roadster gets run into? If the latter, then it would be possible that the fluid flow could get disrupted at the same time as a group of cells get damaged. Anyways, way more detail than I care to contemplate for long.

Someone needs to design a Li-ion battery that can’t catch fire.

I have heard that Tesla is making changes in 1.5 that will address this pump issue.

Here is a good strategy posted on the Tesla owners board. What do you think Martin?

Copied from Tesla owners forum:
=========================================
The home charger charges the Tesla in 3 1/2 hours, empty to full. This implies that charging from 50% (the “storage” setting) to 85% (the “normal” setting) only takes about an hour. And since I’ll typically know more than an hour in advance when I’m going to need the full range, I plan to leave my charger on the “storage” setting the majority of the time, switching to “normal” setting only an hour before I plan to leave on a longer trip. This works around the coolant pump issue without compromising driving range, and the inconvenience is minimal.

By the same token, I could just as well switch to the “full” setting and wait an hour and a half, then immediately drive off the full charge. Since the battery would only stay above 85% for a very short time, this shouldn’t hurt battery life, and would give me the advantage of the full 244-mile range.

Sounds like a good work-around. Just need to think of the “Storage” setting as “Normal”. Not sure when “limp mode” kicks in as the battery approaches empty.

I’ve exchanged Email with Zak (of Tesla Motors) about never charging the car above 50%. He agrees/believes that other than having a shorter range, this will work fine. And, as some people have suggested above, is likely to result in (slightly) longer battery life.

I’m sure you can model the battery life analytically. Actually testing this in real use… will take time.

Martin sez:

This just won’t work for me. The whole point of a 200 mile range is so that I don’t have to plan my whole day out the night before, when I choose my charge algorithm. Quite commonly, I will decide to go to the City for dinner or some other evening activity while I am at work. Charging to just half way means I can’t live my life in the spontaneous way that I like to live.

TEG- well , now that Li-ion is highly suitable for car use and is so really important, it’s time for the semi-geniuses of the world in Japan, Korea, U.S. (business and schools, like MIT)… or ? to make a fireproof battery just as good-or dare I say better ?- than those used now. Since nano is the latest rage, maybe there’s something to be found there? In the future it would nice to say, with a Mexican accent: “Pumps ?-we don’t need no stinking pumps !”

Martin sez:

I am convinced that a safe and reliable pack can be built with existing lithium ion cells that does not require constantly-circulating water.

This is a bit of bad news for me. I always assumed people working on the ESS were taking safety seriously but after reading this, I start thinking they could have gone a bit too far!

Martin sez:

The new nano “Buckypaper” that Florida State Univ. is working on (and planning to commercialize) is wonderful stuff- they say it will be useful in batteries-maybe good for an inproved Li-ion battery, that won’t burn too.

Martin, how about this battery? http://www.boston-power.com

Martin sez:

It’s been a little while since I checked out Boston Power. The cells on their website are a little low in energy density, and pretty good for cycle life. I wonder how their price compared to the big producers? I would also be interested in mor info on calendar life and a few other specs. Definitely worth watching.

Great article. I liked the picture of the car near skyline ridge.

The challenge of developing a new car involves so much intellectual property and parts development that the cost will always be high for a new entrant.

I think energy is just one part of the equation.

Take for instance my cars, a Subaru Forester and Legacy. They were purchased primarily for safety.
Their power bands are built for ordinary driving and sacrifice some mileage for safety. But realistically, the cars are built for families that live in temperate conditions, quite a very large market.

Volt, scholt! (GM, sch-mee-em!- hebrew word meaning “big schmucks”. Lutz=hebrew word synonomous with putz). But here’s the real problem with the coming green cars/green revolution, Minis and more: the ability of people to afford it-in this bleeped-up country especially. A report in Google news today from a world group called OECD (Organiztion for Economic Cooperation & Devlopment), based on 3 year study: the U.S. , of 30 industrial countries studied, betters only Mexico and Turkey in regard to highest inequality and poverty rates. They said inequality gap has increased rapidly since 2000. The best countries, in terms of less inequality and poverty, include Denmark, Sweden and Australia. In the U.S. the richest 10% of people earn $93,000 per year or over- the highest in the OECD. So: McCain sez Obama wants to “wage class warfare”-I got newz for him: the coddled rich (especially coddled by the Banana Republic of the North known as Washington, D.C.) have been waging class warfare on the rest of the country for years, and at an accelerated rate since 2000. Now they have expanded the war via all the Wall St./mortgage jackasses- the “WWEMD’s” (”Walking weapons of economic mass destruction”)they have unleashed on the WORLD-not just the U.S. Anderson Cooper of CNN is posting the top 10 most wanted of these jerks, one per day. I hope the election polling is right, ’cause I’ve got my champagne ready for Nov. 4 when red state America-”those retrograde, de-evolutionary , un-intelligent designed wonderful fools who brought us Bush (as opposed to the complete no-brainer choice of Gore) and now ’suggest’ McCain” get rightfully, and finally, clobbered.

Yanq- yeah, that’s what I wondered earlier about- possibility of air cooling in Tesla. A lot of cars air cool the radiator with a fan when the engine is off even-including the Mini. If Mini will really go 150 miles per charge, this is wunderbar. I wondered earlier where the Germans were re. elect. cars-looks like here they come-and with complimentary home solar to (das) boot. Whoever the people are at BMW who have been working on the Mini since it was born, I say give them big shiny medals. Now they have to find a way to get the rear seats back. The new Mini goes right up hills like they aren’t there-this EV Mini is going to be something, yah !?

..Mini-E: Rear seats taken up by batteries.

Mini power: Li-ion batteries “5088 cells in 48 modules” per Peder Mini Co. post above. This is almost as many batteries as the Tesla-so how is Mini managing to air cool them all ? ( clever german engineering?). Re. rear seat- Mini just has to stretch their wagon version (the “Clubwagon” which came out this year -beautiful car too) to get rear seats back- which could be phase II.

Martin sez:

Now who would do a thing like that?

I also miss walking to the polling place in my Santa Clara county precinct and getting an “I Voted!” sticker.

You’ve quoted energy usage in units of energy/distance akin to the liters/kilometer measure used for petroleum powered cars in other areas of the world. Tesla Roadsters will help set the standard for quoting the efficiency of electric vehicles – how about using SI units throughout (specifically kilometers for distance)?

Martin sez:

There is a good argument that I should instead use mi/kWh because we buy electricity by the kWh – not the Wh. I chose not to do this because the numbers are small, and you need a few digits after the decimal point to get a meaningful number.

Martin:

I learn something new every day! I thought that the prime reason for cooling lithium-ion batteries was to thwart thermal runaway –although I understood that it also extends their calendar life. Since thermal runaway isn’t so worrisome, it makes sense that BMW would settle for air-cooling in those 500 electric MINIs: they only intend to test them for one year before gathering them up again, and thus calendar life isn’t really a concern.

I assume that AC Propulsion must be using air-cooling in the eBox, since that is what they did with the tZero. It makes me wonder how the battery packs in those vehicles are holding up…? It also makes me wonder how the i-MiEV cools its battery pack. My guess is that it is likewise air-cooled, although I am pretty sure that the motor itself has inlet and outlet hose connections for liquid cooling.

What really makes me shake my head about this topic is that, in years past, manufacturers limited their EV tests to California, Arizona, sometimes Florida, precisely because they were “warm climate” states and lead-acid batteries didn’t do well in the cold. But with lithium-ion… it sounds like they would actually perform better and last longer in colder climes. Why, then, are they still limiting testing to California? It is not as if those large- and small-paddle chargers will work with the MINI E anyway! They should let me lease a test model in my area, amidst the six-feet deep snows that pile up on the sides of my driveway.

Martin sez:

But… the real reason to limit EV sales to California is because only EVs licensed in California will generate ZEV credits with California’s ARB – and the ZEV mandate is still one of the principal driving forces behind big car company EV efforts. So lobby your state government to create a similar ZEV mandate

Martin said:

Lithium ion cells typically are rated to operate down to minus 20 C, and must be above 0 C to charge.

————————————

Gadfrey! That is worrisome, then. Where we live I have seen temperatures hit 102 F in the summers, and -18 F in the winters. Of course, the climate is not so extreme inside a garage, but still… an EV with lithium-ion would likely need both cooling and heating hardware around here!

Which is all the more reason OEMs should test their EVs in other states: you would think that they’d want to verify what works –and what doesn’t– in the full spectrum of climes.

As for those CARB credits… argh. I have said for a long time that they are going about pushing cleaner alternatives the wrong way. Instead of numbers and percentages (like in the past) or tiered “credits” (like now), they should simply mandate that, by a given year, franchised dealers must have EVs in the showrooms for potential customers to see and test-drive. Period. Or… they face fines and eventually lose their business license. Let the consumer decide rather than allow the OEMs to dance around the issue, all the while claiming that there is “no customer demand.” Sheesh.

I am pushing my state, let me tell you. In this area, however, they typically have to see-it-to-believe-it. I sure wish someone would bring a highway-capable EV here –even if only test models. It would help the cause immensely.

Martin sez:

But… in these early days of modern EVs, I think it is okay if cars don’t yet work in all possible climates. (Sorry, Yanquetino ) Let’s get them working, start building a market and pushing the technology. We’ll eventually get there, but we have to start somewhere and we have to start now, while the technology is not yet mature.

BMW wouldn’t crush EV Minis- Wagner & his Valkyries would come down and smite them for that- they’d covert them back to ICE, no ? Leasing allows for real world testing, but aside from that Convenient Truth, it is suspicious, no? Wonder what sales cost of an EV Mini would be-like $70,000 or so per AC Propulsion Scion ?

So: what is Martin’s take on the economic situation-seeing as how it is now affecting Tesla and everyone else. All the green cars and tech. in the world won’t amount to much if “the proverbial no one” has any money to buy into it, including our halibuts deleted banking system & govt. entities. I know that the following is “totally out of the question ” but: why isn’t the society norm, in a bad downturn, to cut pay of everyone in a company rather than lay a lot of people off? Seems to me that this would act buffer the effects of econ. trouble before it spiraled out of hand- since once a job is gone, it will only come back when a big turnaround sets in for real-when it’s “really safe again”. This is a recipe for longer term econ. trouble than it might otherwise have to be. We could be looking at a big oversupply of green car/green tech. capacity with not enough “available adopters of it ” out there. Just wonderful-at it to all the other wonderfuls.

Martin sez:

Is it really the economic situation that is affecting Tesla? I heard they have a customer backlog that is well more than a year’s production capacity. Falling OEM car sales should generate cooperative (even desperate) suppliers. They got a (second) sweetheart deal for the construction of their (second) planned sedan factory. OEMs are shedding highly qualified talent that would likely work for cheap. They supposedly have a federal guarantee for a huge loan. Maybe I am dumb, but I fail to see how this economic crisis caused the recent reorganization and sedan program scale-back at Tesla.

Martin said:

But… in these early days of modern EVs, I think it is okay if cars don’t yet work in all possible climates. (Sorry, Yanquetino ) Let’s get them working, start building a market and pushing the technology. We’ll eventually get there, but we have to start somewhere and we have to start now, while the technology is not yet mature.

———————————

Yup, you’re right: we have to start somewhere, and aiming for temperate climes as a first step makes a lot of sense.

That’s going to be pretty tough for Th!nk, however, since global warming hasn’t (yet) turned Norway into another Caribbean. I also have to hand it to Mitsubishi for testing out the i-MiEV in Iceland and New Zealand. They are evidently thinking ahead. I wish both companies well!

Ironically, by the time there are several highway-capable EVs to choose from, I’ll probably move to warmer climes anyway. My (much) better half’s health doesn’t handle sub-zero temperatures any better than lead-acid batteries… and I am getting pretty fed up with snow-blowing those six feet deep drifts for months on end!

Gabe, thanks for the tip on the possible Tesla – electric Smart connection. Something like that is probably the most helpful contribution to the environment that Tesla could do anytime soon.

Could there be an AC Propulsion – BMW Mini ev interface? Some of the parameters seem to match up suspiciously well.

Carolyn, you always express yourself very well. I’m also plenty fed up with the endless waiting for a practical EV or PHEV to be available.

Many thanks to Tesla Dave for sharing Zak’s comments from the owner’s forum, and to TEG for providing the link. It cleared up a lot.

Chris, thanks for letting me know that I’m not the only one who appreciates my humor, although I’m embarrassed to admit that only one would be sufficient to keep expressing it.

T.J., I assume that by “design” in your comments about BMW and Mini you mean recent body style and not engineering and build quality. In that case I strongly agree, esp. given the non-integrated trunk styling and that tank of an SUV with a fastback top they call a coupe.

The mention of a Tesla with a 110 mile range made me consider a Roadster with only about half the number of cells in the battery pack. Since the existing pack weighs about 900 pounds, it would result in a much quicker car because of the approx. 450 pound weight loss with essentially the same power (but reduced range). A lot of the existing pack is toward the top of the car, so handling might be improved too. The weight distribution would probably be closer to that of the original Lotus design. Oh, yes, the car might be $10,000 or so cheaper to build and buy. If offered as an option it would be interesting to see the customer reaction.

Maybe Musk is only looking at the price of his divorce. How much of Musk’s money will be his once his soon-to-be-ex-wife and her lawyer get done with him? Will he maintain control of Tesla, Space-X, and Solar City? The fact that the US economy tanked may just be a convenient excuse for him. His latest moves may be just a way for him to maintain control of Tesla.

# Steve S. wrote:
## made me consider a Roadster with only about half the number of cells in the battery pack…

Yes, this idea has been tossed around a bit.
Some discussion here
Way back in 2006 I said “I personally would prefer a lighter 125 mile range roadster at a reduced cost compared the 250 mile range current model.”
And Chris Rijk wrote “do a cut-down version of the battery, but with the same power delivery…the whole car becomes quite a lot lighter, which improves acceleration and other performance factors. ”
Robert Weekley wrote “if they could do a vehicle with a smaller battery pack of – say 100 mile range…”
David wrote “just cut the size of the battery pack by 30%, have a (more than 15%) lighter car with the same amount of juice – this would likely increase the range marginally due the lighter load, but could show a significant difference in performance and handling”
I vaguely recall that TM once responded that they were considering such a thing for a special variation designed for racing.

TEG, you caught me being slightly disingenuous about a shorter range Roadster, although all of it is completely honest. As you no doubt know, it was commonly believed not that long ago, even by some very intelligent people, that the reason that almost every last one of the modern electric cars was trucked to remote locations, crushed and shredded into little chunks, was because electric cars were simply failures. That was believd to be true for one fundamental reason: insufficient range. They wouldn’t go all that much over 100 miles without recharging. I often contested that opinion, here and elsewhere. Now, when the world is clamoring for highway capable electic cars with even a 40 mile range, I couldn’t resist writing a somewhat subtle “I told you so”.

I completely agree with Martin about the $70,000 clown car, although as he suggested they’re much smaller, lighter and more practical for conversion than they appear. As Mark Twain said about Wagner, “It’s not as bad as it sounds”.

In my opinion the EV-1 (although the fastest) wasn’t the best crushed EV for changing the world. The remaining sold, not leased, RAV4 EVs are still going strong with their superb original Panasonic EV-95 batteries. But the RAVs weren’t the best either. The best electric car was designed and developed brilliantly from the ground up as a highway capable all-electric commuter, with the same EV-95 batteries as the RAV.

Tesla still has a lot of work in front of it to fill customer orders, but they’ve already been paid a huge chunk of the price as a deposit, certainly more than the profit margin for most of them. From that point of view they’re faced with delivering cars at a loss, well into the future. They’re faced with upgrading the drivelines of many of them at a total loss. There seems to be a lot of doubt in the Chairman’s mind (and mine) that the governmental handouts for the sedan project will become a reality in an economic depression, and a luxury sedan might not be a timely product now (or, in my crank environmentalist and car guy outlook, ever). It must be pointed out that the last opinion is not well founded and quite possibly dead wrong.

# Steve S. wrote:
## The best electric car was designed and developed brilliantly from the ground up as a highway capable all-electric commuter, with the same EV-95 batteries as the RAV.

Are you talking about the Honda EVplus?

The NiMH EV1s used Ovonic batteries, not [url=http://www.peve.jp/e/news.html]Panasonic[/url].
Vehicles that used the EV-95 batteries were:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV]Toyota RAV4-EV[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_EV]Ford RangerEV[/url]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus]EVPlus[/url]

# Steve S. wrote:
## The best electric car was designed and developed brilliantly from the ground up as a highway capable all-electric commuter, with the same EV-95 batteries as the RAV.

Are you talking about the Honda EVplus?

The NiMH EV1s used Ovonic batteries, not Panasonic.
Vehicles that used the EV-95 batteries were:
Toyota RAV4-EV
Ford RangerEV
EVPlus

TEG- kind of GM-like brushed alum spear, don’t know if I like that design M.O. Too bad there’s no longer a Tesla Detroit office to keep working on this. Wonder who those ex-Teslan guys are voting for now. Who you voting for TEG ?- got to ask yourself one question, TEG (besides “are you felling lucky ?”)-do you like the color blue?- well DO you, TEG ?! ( got any relatives in Nev.-’cause it’s gonna count here, Calif. is already a wrap)

Re: Model S teaser:

“Hey, it looks like a Fisker!”

Just kidding… No death threats please…

Chris-no, wait-not Mexico: Somalia- the world’s ultimate” laissez faire” country. Look that up in your Funk & Wagnells and see how well it would suit “Joe six- pack”-you betcha ! Why it sounds like Joe’s ancestral home. He could even be a pirate – not just a financial one, but a real one.

What worries me, is that something called “lithium ion batteries” are lumped in to one in this discussion. The entire problem arises from using a particular type of lithium ion chemistry, namely ones with lithium cobalt oxide cathodes and graphite anodes.

There is a myriad of different lithium battery chemistries that do not have the problems that Tesla needs to design around.

It would be good if that distinction is always made when discussing lithium battery safety for cars, as not to needlessly spread FUD.

By the way, in retrospect, would you say that going with LiCoO2 batteries was a good choice ? Sacrificing some of the specific energy in favor of safer and easier to manage batteries may have worked out _lower_ in overall energy consumption, all things considered.

Martin sez:

So, to answer your question, I still think opting for the highest energy density batteries was the right decision. A Tesla with a 100 mile range would not have created quite the stir that the 200-mile Tesla did. I would make the same decision today – opt for high energy, then design safety into the *system*. (But I would have done so without leaving a pump running 24/7, for goodness sake!)

@gonzo

While it’s true that America has built a value system around the conceptual metaphor Big IS Good (see Lakoff and Johnson 1980, et al), the Model S doesn’t seem to be that tiny. The BMW 3 series sedan isn’t a monster but is quite popular (of course it lets you buy into BMW at a lower entry price then a lot of their larger products – which reminds, I saw a 760li in a walmart parking lot…something wrong there…maybe it was the manager or something). Irregardlessly (an amazing work of affixation my friend came up with), the short range viability of a 70k sedan that looks and feels like 40k sedan (except for the EV part of course) is going to be a bitch to forecast. My own feeling is that any car maker that makes it past the next three to five years is good to go, assuming sound fundamentals.

Not to mention the S’s Mule appears to be a Dodge Magnum. A BIG car.

TEG, I’m always impressed by your EV knowledge and insights. Yeah, I was talking about the EV+, in that paragraph as “the best crushed EV for changing the world”.

I love sports cars, and would much rather drive an EV-1, esp. since I followed Paul MacCready’s work starting with the human powered aircraft days. They were built by a bunch of young Southern CA car and airplane and high tech fabrication crazies, and I once swam in those waters. The EV-1 involved the genius of several other Cal Tech guys. The Impact prototype was rushed to completion on a tight schedule, and was a pretty radical lightweight sports car, not designed for mass production or low cost. Wally said that some of what they did was a little clumsy, but it was all so new, and it worked! By accounts the EV-1s were pretty much hand built, and the Ovonics batteries weren’t as well developed as the Panasonic EV-95s. They often needed to be cooled to be charged, if you can imagine such a thing.

The EV+ was designed by one of the world’s two leading small car manufacturers to be a mass-produced electric commuter. It had seating for 4 and a hatchback for storage. That same car could still change the world, except for the EV-95 batteries which were killed by Chevron ownership of the patents, acquired from GM. Something a lot like it eventually will.

Here are a few links: http://www.honda.com/ev-plus/ , http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1988evplus/text/01.html ,
http://www.hondaev.org/acare.html , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDRBRuvct54 .

I wasn’t aware that the Ford Ranger EV was such an impressive vehicle. Does yours have the EV-95 batteries?

Conversions seem to be a perfectly acceptable way to get a substantial number of vehicles on the road anytime soon, if they have enough resources behind them. The RAV4-EV and the Ranger were very good, and so is the e-Box if enough could be built and sold. We’ve done very little about global climate change for the 30 years we’ve known about it, and time is not our friend.

I’m still intrigued with the Getz phenomenon I mentioned a while ago, http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=808 which enjoys the support of the manufacturer (Hyundai) which sells them, the New Zealand government, and a capable conversion company. They’re saving time by not even starting with a glider (what race car guys call a roller) but evidently shipping the removed components of the conversion back to Hyundai.

Looks a bit like a Nissan GT-R

http://www.gtrnissan.com/

Submitted for your approval: Nathan Bedford Forrest- remember him ?- no, I thought not: Confederate civil war general- almost never lost a battle. Civil war historian Shelby Foote said “the civil war produced two authentic geniuses: Lincoln and Forrest”. He started the war as a private and ended up a general-he gave U.S. Grant fits. After the war he was an advocate of civil rights and voting rights for blacks and an opponent of the KKK. His motto for winning a battle: “Git thar fust with the most men” (often misquoted as “git thar firstest with the mostest”). Submitted for further approval: Paul Klugman, nobel prize winning economist, who said on Charlie Rose Show last night that the lesson of the “lost decade” of ’80’s to ’90’s in Japanese economy wuz this: at the hint of a crisis (and he says our current one has similarities) you “hit the problem fast and hard”-which the Japanese failed to do. Submitted for furtherest approval: those who would agree with Forrest and Klugman: Grant, Sherman, Patton-and Colin Powell (per his concept of: “if force is required, make it overwhelming). Klugman said that the U.S. Govt. failed to “git thar”- bailing out Lehman Bros. should have been done to placate the skittish herd set to stampede-since the firm had huge symbolic value and as long as the govt., correctly, saved all the other firms later, it was stupid not to save Lehman-because that firm was at the head of the cattle herd. Now online news is that the asians and europeans are going to hold meetings to work on solving the crisis and charting the future of the world financial system-the was U.S. not mentioned. Yeah-why should we be in on it to mess it up, seeing as how we’re a nation run by fools- since our fools effectively negate the anti-fool elements time and again.

TJ,

Got it. “Hit hard & fast, shock & oh, oh, whoa!” Shrub & Hank did too little, too late… Mission (Not)Accomplished. Welcome to the (soon to be) New World Order. Say hello to your (soon to be) wealthy neighbours to the south (Mexico is a net oil exporter, food, natural resources, adding manufacturing jobs, etc.).

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/mx.html

With D’s in the White House, Congress, and the Senate, the U.S. may manage to turn things around in time, but there are no guarantees. I wish you the best of luck.

What do you think of the pic of the Model S?

Chris, after criticizing the new Volt, which at least has a gasoline engine, for its fake grille I’m going to have to disqualify myself from commenting on the aesthetics of the Tesla sedan. Or of nearly any of the front views on new models in your link. Instead, here’s a link to an article in the October Road & Track by the great car and motorcycle guy Peter Egan:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=26&article_id=6978

Here’s an excerpt:

At the hybrid/scientific end of the spectrum, however, we have some pretty smooth shapes, like those of the Toyota Prius or the new Honda Civic — or the unfortunately discontinued Honda Insight. And I must admit, true to Sarah Webster’s newspaper story, this last group of cars has begun to look better to me every day. What a surprise, given our current fuel prices.
I used to see a Prius in the flow of traffic and say, “Interesting, but a little odd.”
Now I see one and say, “Excellent shape for a car.”

On another subject, Martin made an excellent point about the long range of the Roadster being a very important part of its enthusiastic acceptance by the media and public, a crucial factor in the automotive revolution.

Steve,

I guess Peter Egan made that comment before Honda announced that they are resurrecting the Insight, but he makes a good point in that our aesthetic drifts over time.

BTW, your opinion is always welcome…

(Here we go again)
NYTimes blog from today…

“Mr. Musk blamed the bulk of Tesla’s problems on its first chief executive, Martin Eberhard, whom Mr. Musk said spent too much money and too many years developing the company’s first car. “It’s taken us about a year to correct major errors,” Mr. Musk said.

Mr. Eberhard, who is now an entrepreneur at Mayfield Fund, disputed that. “He’s still blaming it on me a year later and three C.E.O.s later?” he said. “Look at the constant factor at the company through all the years: Elon.” ”

Martin sez:

And a year later, he is still coming up with new reasons why he ousted me.

Dr. T: well, per Elon-at least he just got fired by his wife. I came across something on the company SES Suncatcher again-they who make solar power with a 38′ diam. dish focusing on a Stirling engine. I thought maybe a smaller one for home use could be put in a back yard- then I thought: what if you got a big lense-like even lighthouse size (fresnel lighthouse lense even-plastic maybe?) and focused that on the Stirling engine (helium gas type) : lense and engine as one unit, tracking the sun. Wonder if this could make home solar power cheaper than silicon PV ?-Sure would be compact. Came across online info. that is not so good for thin-film solar: there is a global warming gas called nitrogen trifluoride that is thousands of times the heating trapping gas that co2 is. They said that since 1978 the amount in the atmosphere has increased 30 fold. It comes from the manufacture of LCD T.V. screens and computer monitors- and from making thin-film solar. Right now, though, this gas only contributes to global warming to the tune of .04%. The article also said that methane has been rising faster than projections foresaw- and that gas is a lot worse of a global warmer than co2

TEG said,

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself.

Clint Eastwood fan?

“Blue, for lack of a better word, is good” -Gordon “Green” Gekko. Looks like more big U.S. companies will lay off people. Something online about like 17 of 29 U.S. steel mills kind of shut down. It’s all so wonderful: all ” for a pocketful of fools- for a few fools more”. The guy who ran Lehman Bros. is named Fuld- his family name used to be Fool-but his grandfather changed it so he could work on Wall St., incognito. Fuld’s wife’s name used to be Schwab -that figures. Well at least it looks like we’ll have Obama- and maybe over 60 democratic senators- to defeat republican filibuster potential. Oooohhh -the big bad socialist “liberals” might be in charge- a lot of “conservatives” will be out on Halloween dressed as liberals to scare us in a last- ditch patented ™ Republican Scare Ploy. The last worst jobless rate was in ‘82 recession, around 10%. Maybe we can break that record and get the worst since the ’30’s. Some economist on Charlie Rose Show said ” well, things aren’t as bad as people think-’cause now there’s like $7 trillion in cash (and counting) sitting on the sidelines on the world scene-plus vast sovereign wealth funds of other countries-not us, of course- courtesy, in part, of Bush & Co. So there’s money out there-waiting to come in “at some safe point”-while everyone gets hit- for a year, or more (?) McCain is safe as opposed to “his hardworking/ best workers in the world” friends ( usually referred to as “My Friends” ™ – seeing as how he supposedly makes $4.6 million per year-don’t ask me how or why. He would like to tell My Friends ™ that he will definitely miss not being able to keep every (last) dollar of his wealth, in the coming 4 years, since “redistributing it”, in any amount, is against his religion.

Martin,

have you been given a date yet as to when TM plans to upgrade the transmission in your car to the one-speed Borg Warner reduction gear? They seem to be installing the BW gear into cars that are being delivered now.

ATB,

Chris.

Martin sez:

When they delivered the car, they said it would probably be replaced in September… (no new transmission yet.)

Hippopotamus.

Al Stewart Hipposong…

Of course the ultimate apropos song title for Nov. 4 would be: “Blue Morning, Blue Day” by Foreigner. Actually I hope McCain wins- In His Wildest Dreams.

So, TJ, I’ve been meaning to ask, who’re you voting for?

Martin, have you decided what you’re going to do about the coolant pump? Are you just going to let it run until TM comes up with a fix? Are you going to employ one of the strategies outlined above? Or, have you come up with a better idea to avoid wasting 1.3 mWh/yr circulating fluid through the ESS?

Do you think that TM has neglected the goal of optimizing efficiency of the TR in the last 11 months in favour of performance? I suspect that they believe that performance sells more cars than efficiency. What do you think?

BTW, does anybody have an up-to-date figure for the number of roadsters delivered so far? The numbers that I see are all over the place… I’m beginning to think that they’re just guesses…

It’s been over 7 months since the start of “regular series production”. At a rate of 4 cars per week, they should be over 100 cars by now… I’m wondering what the rate limiting step is. Does anybody have any ideas?

Martin sez:

Though I haven’t heard a peep from them, I am hoping this problem will be fixed with the 1.5 upgrade.

Martin, when is your book documenting the Tesla Motors journey coming out? Surely there’s got to be a book. I can’t think of a more compelling story that I would like to read. It could be “The Soul of a New Machine” for this generation.

TJ,

when it comes to stifling progress in the area of renewable energy and alternatives to ICE vehicles, Harper is just as bad as Bush/Cheney. In addition, he really can’t take too much credit for the stability of our banks, or the budget surpluses, because those things were well established by the previous governments under Paul Martin and Jean Chretien. Chretien also had the foresight to keep us out of Iraq. Harper, who was the leader of the official opposition at the time, wanted to rush headlong into the Iraq war. Bush and Harper are buddies. GWB calls him “Stevie-boy”, though I’m pretty sure Harper doesn’t call Bush “Georgie-boy” .
In any case, Harper does not appear to be concerned about global warming, or Canada’s contribution to global CO2 emissions. He was recently reelected, but not with my help.

ATB,

Chris H.

Chris, regarding the production schedule:

I have #108 on order (P132 or so), and a few days ago Tesla confirmed that it is scheduled for delivery right around the first of the year. Presumably it will have drivetrain 1.5, and hopefully the coolant pump issue will be fixed by then (and the iPod/iPhone issues)!

Chris- Well then I must say to Harper: “Take off ! -Get out ! (hoser)- guess I’ll have to go with Pierre Trudeau, then (reincarnated version 2.0). He was o.k., ay ? In one more week maybe we’ll see the meager start of a renaissance in this country, wherein diehard red state America gets hit over the head with a 2×4 like the muleheads that they are. “I Dig a Pony (phase one where Doris gets her oats)”- and the same for Joe Six (mule team)pack.

Yeah, let’s hope for a good day.

I don’t know if any of you guys are interested in how the rest of the world would vote (if they could), but here’s a lighthearted look at who everyone outside the US would vote for:

http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/

Apparently Albania, Macedonia, and Venezuela would like to see a McPain/Balin (I can’t help it, I have dyslexia…) administration, but the rest of the world… well, they’re ready for a change.

Steve,

looks like you were right. Well spotted. Sorry I didn’t notice yesterday, but I did go to the “revenge of the electric car” site and read the blog post.

I’m glad to hear that ACP have won this deal as it should give them some much needed revenue. Plus, anybody that does end up leasing one of the Mini Es knows that they are getting a good quality drivetrain.

ATB,

Chris H.

Hey TJ, I didn’t realize that you can speak a foreign language…. ay?

I only moved to Canada in the mid 80s, so I missed most of the Bob & Doug MacKenzie phenomenon, but it looks like you have it down to an art form.

Steve-you’ve got a point, we’ll have to spell it A, A ?

Chris-where you move from, a commonwealth country ? Mike Myers father wuz from england-Liverpool, speaking of which I’ve been watching You Tube videos of McCartney (now that I finally got DSL recently-good as cable with viedos)- he sure was rolling in Moscow in ‘03 – “Birthday” video especially . Also there’s a video of “Please Please Me” from U.S. “US” tour of ‘02 (one with lighted stage floor)- holy cow- that song sure kicks it with the modern stadium sound tech.- and to think that he wrote that when he was 14 -”whey hey ,I’m gobsmacked !”,as they say in England.

TJ: Check this one out

Chris-then you’ve also heard of OMD, also from Beatletown-had that great song “If You Go”-was that the title ? Minor faux pax (I hate when that happens) on the “Please Please Me” ref. -a John song (he did some great early songs)-very rare for Paul to do John in concert, till recently-should have known from the harmonica part. Song I was thinking of wuz: “I’ll Following the Sun”. Also, “P.S. I Love You” was early (Paul wrote when 18 or 19 in Hamburg).

TJ,

I think the title of the song is “If You Leave”. Interestingly, some other OMD song titles are “Tesla Girls” & “Electricity”, and one of their albums was titled “Architecture & Morality”…

I was always partial to “Enola Gay” named, of course, after the B-29 bomber that dropped Little Boy on Hiroshima in 1945. Which brings us back to Mazda, Ford, and feeling blue…

BTW, it’s too bad that the election is not on the 3rd instead of the 4th, then we could have used the New Order anthem “Blue Monday”

Australian ‘Green Motoring’ eMagazine

Tesla should incorporate the Energizer Bunny technology; obviously, the cells are percusion-cooled and it might be a good alternative to the pump that “keeps going”!

Martin, where were you in 1977?
http://www.hybridcars.com/culture/take-tesla-fans-25197.html

# Steve S wrote:
## I just looked at the Top Gear site, which prominently featured the phrase “automotive jackassery”

Well, that show has a very large following and their ‘clowning around’ format has a wider appeal compared to a typical ‘dry’ automotive review show. My wife enjoys a bit of Top Gear now and then and there is no chance she would go for any other auto show I have watched.

My biggest problem with the show is their repeated disrespect for the environment. They tend to burn up a lot of vehicles (supposedly accidentally, but come-on-now), and they like to go off-roading in untouched places. They also have a particular disdain for hybrids and EVs, although we are hoping the Tesla will change their minds soon.

African plains incident
Jeremy on the environment
Their thoughts on the Prius

Chris- ah ha!- not forgetting the Buggles (Beatles) song “For You Blue”. I like the chant of the Univ. of Nebraska football tram: “Go Big Red !”- yeah, just go-ASAP. UPS has a truck called a “hydraulic hybrid”- saw CNN video online showing how it works-pressurized hydraulic fluid- truck uses braking to help re-pressurize it. Eaton Co. (with someone else) makes them. They also have done a hybrid for Fed-Ex-but pretty sure it was another kind of tech.

# Steve S. wrote:
## TEG, Top Gear is much worse than I imagined.
## As far as its popularity, it’s the LCD.

When you say lowest common denominator, are you suggesting that it is low-brow and unrefined so it appeals to “joe six pack”? I think one appeal of the show (at least initially, but now not so much anymore) was that these non-professional, non-trained misfits got their own show to goof around with supercars and got invited as the “odd men out” to various automotive functions. There is some appeal to the thought people had of “hey I could do that”, and “those ordinary guys are so lucky to get those opportunities”. As the seasons went forward the guys actually started getting better and better at driving, their budgets got bigger, they got a pat formula going, and some of the early novelty started to run thin.

In a way there is a parallel to the Tesla story. Some non-automotive engineers got together and decided to start a car company with no formal training. The industry old timers scoff and prepar for the inevitable mistakes and learning curve, but a healthy portion of the rest of us stand on the sidelines and root for the newcomer to see if they can figure it out on their own.
Sometimes a fresh approach, not following the legacy roadmap can find a better way, other times they just have to learn the same old lessons the hard way.

SpaceX is another example of someone outside the field jumping in and trying to “re-invent the wheel” perhaps as a “better mousetrap”. With enough resources and persistence you can eventually figure out how to get things done.

When Bob Lutz went on Colbert Report I took notice. Some big car companies clamor to put their new prototypes on Top Gear instead of some more mainstream, traditional review program. Sometimes “letting your hair down” and letting the amateur wannabes participate gives you more credibility to a broader group. When Martin offered to let me be one of the first to drive his new Roadster it was perhaps one of those moments. I don’t think I was the only one surprised by that move, and I think he got a bit of good will by taking a risk on bringing some random fan into his world.

Looks like GM might merge with Chrysler. Maybe down the road some day there will be no U.S. car companies, like England. They used to have a lot of companies, making some pretty neat cars, but I believe bad management by their “upper class system” bean-counting type managers took them all down. Seems like we have some of the same problems in light of CEO pay in this country. What’s just great is that there is spectacular capacity in the world, especially with all the tech. advances over the years, to make and do all sorts of things- but the economic system doesn’t allow it- not enough cash broadly circulating for lots and lots of people to buy all the possible capacity. On top of it we get a relatively small number of vastly overpaid, hyper-Gekko fools taking down the whole system now with impunity. Between the mortgage company jerks signing up everyone they could as fast as they could and selling risk as fast as they could- and all the Wall St.jerks falling all over themselves to buy it -and the govt. jerks not stopping it…. Guess whatever Martin’s new venture wuz, it’s been put into “two really nice refrigerators” for now.

Chris- yes, I can shirley tell you, based on my investigations, that it is obvious-and Dreyfus agrees- that Musk is embezzling-and putting the cash in two very nice freezers. It also looks like Obama will make it-which I predicted many moons ago, based on early Rothschild link and the major media attention he got out of the blue starting abruptly a few years ago- indicating that “someone ‘up there’ (in high places) likes him”. But lest you think McCain isn’t “pre-approved” think, but of course, again. He is endorsed by ex-sec. of states Kissinger & George Schultz- those two guys being varsity Rothschild team members (butler and shoeshine boy respectively) for, like, forever . As a “leading conspiracy factualist” I can also say that the timing of the following looks pretty strange: by CBS 60 Minutes show report last Sunday, a key de-regulation allowing the current meltdown to happen occurred in the last week of the lame duck congress under Clinton in 2000-right before Bush came in. Over the last 8 years some govt. regulators- like Brooksley Born (per Washington Post article) were screaming-for years actually- that the sky could be falling on all this mortgage/investment stuff-she took it to the top: being Richard Lugar’s banking committee in the senate- he backed Greenspan and Rubin -not her. This means that “the world running cabal” obviously knew of the big potential for disaster- for years. Maybe-”could it be” that they set up this potential-”funny” how it “was started” right before Bush came in and blew up right as he leaves. Just like it was funny that within months of Bush being elected 911 happened. The “debt swaps” were insurance on the mortgage CDO stuff failing. No one knew how much of this mortgage funny paper stuff/debt swaps was out there, since it was all “private and unregulated and unreported”-which is what Born said was REALLY dangerous- since she knew at least that the cash in this was vast, based on “voluntary reporting”. So who KNOWS who was buying a lot of it : Rothschilds and assocs. “perhaps”! ? But these guys would have known that Titantic-like firms like Lehman Bros. didn’t have enough “debt swap insurance lifeboats on board”- so if they wanted to call in their debt swap insurance markers and say “pay me back Lehman”, which they could say at any time for any reason-they knew that they would get a lot of their cash back-as in “get on a lifeboat” before Lehman ran out of boats for everyone else. Of course once the rush for the boats was started everyone ran. Then a bunch of other similarly ill-equip. ships hit icebergs too. Of course “the cabal” would have known exactly what would happen-as “Chicken Little Born” knew, for sure. They would also have known ( and could have helped foster) that once the key regulation was de-regulated in 2000 that there could-nay would be a feeding frenzy- into shaky mortgages as the greedy Geckos of Wall St. and the mortgage companies got in on the latest rage. Also it has been reported by many that Greenspan kept interest rates too low for too long-leading to people to rack up credit card debt and buy houses they couldn’t afford-adding fuel to the de-regulation fire. Who knows ?- but there is real, verifiable “conspiracy factualist” fodder here-and how. Like I said: the timing-really curious. Like a Leslie Nielsen movie: “Bush 33 1/3( IQ’er’s) : the Final Insult”

@CH,

$9m cash does seem like a short supply – but its hard to tell what it actually means. Presumably the vast majority of that 150m initial investment was spent on RD and capital expenses – building the facilities and stores and so on. I think the plan had been to get the roadster off the ground and then do an IPO to raise the next round of funding – the current crises probably has them scared that they wouldn’t be able to raise what they need (probably 150-200m to get through the next round of development and get the Model S to a profitable place).

Presumably, if they are indeed losing real cash (it will be years before they sell enough to make back the development costs) on each Roadster built and sold, AND it looked like they were going to burn through their cash, they would up the price now for everyone who doesn’t have a deposit down.

Another disappointing thing read here is the comment concerning ACP’s decision not to convert the newer Scion xB. I can actually look at the new xB without flinching, and had hoped an EV conversion of that model would be in the offing.

When I asked the same question via ACP’s website, some months ago, I never got an answer, so thanks to MarkW for posting the answer that he got here.

TEG, I’m not surprised that Martin chose you to be among the first to drive his car. Your posts speak for themselves. I always enjoy them and find them interesting.

My Chariots of the Gods story was trying to point out that success or popularity or fame aren’t good indicators of merit. The author of that pile of crap got much more wealth and fame out of it than serious archaeologists achieve in their whole careers.

I’ve only seen Top Gear once, other than your links, so I’m not on firm ground to comment, but I still find it repulsive. It’s not important or all that interesting, but I have a theory, or group of related theories, why a lot of reasonable people might find the show amusing and entertaining and others not. I’ll have to wait until my workplace adventures calm down to sketch it out. Incidentally, it explains the special meaning I’m giving to the L in LCD.

Writing is slow and difficult going for me, esp. about an unfamiliar field, and involving a theory that’s not exactly mainstream. And one that might be offensive if misinterpreted.

Here are a couple of my somewhat similar and easier to expain ideas.

Alcoholism is not a disease, and not primarily an addiction, but a belief system.

The idea of only five senses for humans seems ridiculous. How can you ride a bicycle on a parking lot blindfolded? What’s that sensation you get in an elevator? What makes you seasick? What are those semicircular canals near your ears for?

# Steve S. wrote:
## I’ve only seen Top Gear once, other than your links, so I’m not on firm ground to comment, but I still find it repulsive. It’s not important or all that interesting, but I have a theory, or group of related theories, why a lot of reasonable people might find the show amusing and entertaining and others not.

Well, I am not going to spend a lot of effort trying to “defend” the show. Yes, it is crass, irreverent, uncouth, outrageous and intentionally disturbing at times. They spend some effort targeting the “Beavis and Butthead” crowd.

With that said, I am guilty of finding it entertaining at times. I suppose for that reason I am a hypocrite for criticizing Tesla for their participation in the “Gumball 3000″ rally. Well, if you look at Top Gear as just some warped fantasy, not meant to reflect reality then it isn’t out of line to pan those who would copy it.
Like those disclaimers in “Jackass” (or even Mythbusters) which say “Please! Don’t try this yourself!”

Gabe, are you sure you won’t write three posts telling me how good the show is, and then decide that you don’t want to defend it when I suggest that I have some thoughts on why a lot of people like it and others don’t?

There’s no debate. I have a lot of respect for TEG and I thought he deserved a thoughtful response to his messages, even though I dislike spending any time thinking about things that annoy me, and I certainly didn’t want to expend any great effort on writing about them, so I’m glad he lost interest.

My theory about why some people like it and others don’t, however, has nothing to do with the show. It’s about cultural and generational factors, and is largely speculative, but fairly interesting I think. At this point I won’t sketch it out unless more than one person begs me to.

Did I mention that four of my favorite living comedians are Sarah Silverman, Wanda Sykes, Susie Essman and Molly Shannon? My favorite dead one is Sam Kinison. Some of them are irreverent at times, but it’s done with intelligence, wit, comedic talent, and underlying truth.

It’s no doubt true that TG is improving, and that there’s more merit in what you and TEG wrote than I’m admitting.

You don’t have to be a jackass to enjoy jackassery. But it helps.

So Steve is good looking? I just liked his brain. Smart women? Right now I like Rachel Maddow. Funny? Try Catherine O’Hara.

A friend loaned me several Arrested Development DVDs, which she loves, and I immediately noticed that Jeffrey Tambor was in the cast. He was great in The Larry Sanders Show, one of my all-time favorite comedy series. There are only a couple of DVDs, but I’m happy to own them.

I’d prefer AD to be a lot more edgy and a little less whimsical, but that’s just my taste.

I’m a big fan of Curb, but I can’t take too much of it at one sitting. I esp. enjoy the ones with happy endings, and anything with Gina Gerson. Did you notice Larry David’s choice of cars?

Incidentally, I stole the good-looking people line from a Larry David standup routine. It was a jokey repsponse to what I thought was a jokey comment.

I can’t pass up mentioning the wonderful humor and stories in the special features of the Reservoir Dogs DVDs. First of all, the Quentin Tarantino http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=tarantino&__q=tarantino&btnG=Google+Search&lr=&dur=&so=0&num=10#hl=en&q=tarantino&__q=tarantino&btnG=Google%20Search&lr=&dur=&so=0&num=10&start=20
bio story is a good one, and the bios and stories of the cast members are also. The background material on crime fiction authors and the genre is extensive and interesting.

Just the audio of Stephen Wright recording the disk jockey material that plays on a radio station in the background of the movie is worth the price of admission. Almost every line is followed by a break for the laughter of Wright, Tarantino and the crew to die down. At one point Wright comments, “This is so wrong.”

Don’t miss the audio interview with the prison inmate, a former getaway car driver.

Since this is pretty much a dead-ended section I’ll give another example of Tarantino’s thoroughness: at the beginning of Jackie Brown a small-time illegal gun merchant (Sam Jackson) is showing an old prison friend (Robert DeNiro) a demo VCR tape of his products. A few seconds of it is shown on his TV while Jackson talks over it. Tarantino wrote, produced and shot the entire video, which he called Chicks With Guns. It’s on the Jackie Brown special features. He rounded up several (mostly) machine guns and lots of ammo, and several beautiful athletic young models in bikinis, then went out to the desert. The models each showed and described one of the guns and fired it at a target.

Tarantino is hugely popular in England, much more so than here, and it’s easy to imagine the writers of Top Gear borrowing some of his ideas.

# Steve S. wrote:
## Did you notice Larry David’s choice of cars?

Of course, the “very rich guy driving the humble Prius” is/was a notable feature of that show. And Larry made plenty of Prius comments in the show. Did you notice he upgraded from 1st gen to 2nd gen along the way?

Now I wonder how much Larry wanted to make the Prius be part of the show as apposed to pressure from Laurie. (Unfortunately another marriage that didn’t last).

## …special features … (Sam Jackson)

Another hilarious DVD extra is the fake retro cartoon The adventures of Mr. Incredible with a supposed early look at Samuel Jackson’s Frozone character. (Actually as I rewatch it now it doesn’t seem as funny as I remember. Maybe you need to have the kids watch along, or have just watched the incredible animation of the movie and then be struck by the stark contrast of the joke cartoon).

OK, here it is:
The adventures of Mr. Incredible (with Commentary)

I know I’m late to comment on this but from scanning the articles it sounds like the ESS coolant pump is designed to prevent battery heat problems.

Tesla might want to check with Neal Sakai of Zero Motorcycles. He has a patent on an L-ion configuration that prevents the heat issues that can arise. I believe this is why he’s able to run the Zero without any cooling system on the battery pack. You can check them out http://www.zeromotorcycles.com.

Incidentally it is a fine machine. I rode one back in 2007 and as motorcycle enthusiast I was hooked!

Hi
This is very interesting, as it would point to a passively balanced battery bank. Energy waste and heat generated are the tell tale signs of a passively balanced battery bank. On a 100k sports car? primitive!!!!

Martin sez:

Not so. The pump IS the energy waste, and the pump running has nothing to do with heat (except perhaps the heat generated in a catastrophic failure.)

Dear Martin,

DHL is planning to organize the first electric grand prix race in brands hatch england in January.. we have been invited to enter two of our electric elises.. I wonder would you be able to bring your car to take part? it would be a good chance to exchange and share ideas . remember we are trying to move the industry forward.

I believe it is a 15 – 20 laps race 2.5km per lap..

Albert Lam, Detroit Electric..

I talked to someone at the Menlo Park Tesla store yesterday (12/9/2008) and was told they would fix the ever-running pump soon. If I understood the explanation correctly, the pump currently runs whenever the battery is more than about 60% charged and they will change this threshold to somewhere around 85% to 90%. This will mean that if you charge to the normal level (or the storage level) the pump will turn off. If you use either the range or performance charge level (both of which are 100% charge) the pump will stay on.

When is “soon”? I don’t know.

BTW, the charger by itself uses 1kwh in 15 days. I was curious about this so I left the charger turned on after it was installed even though I don’t have my car yet. I also had a meter installed to measure the power used by the car, which is how I know it used 1kwh in 15 days. This isn’t bad (less than 3W). Just another “zombie” load in the house when the car isn’t charging. I suppose I could (maybe should) turn the charger off when the car isn’t plugged in to it.

Martin sez:

Thanks for the charger measurement – I’ve been meaning to do the same experiment. It turns out to be quite simple to turn it off when you are done charging – I do it every day. (For those of you who don’t have a Tesla charger, there is a circuit breaker on its left side that shuts it off completely.) You just have to make a habit out of it, or write yourself a big sign.

Martin, my comment about the right side was because your comment said “(For those of you who don’t have a Tesla charger, there is a circuit breaker on its left side that shuts it off completely.)” That’s a copy/paste so I didn’t make any transcription errors… and you said “left.” (You most have meant “the other left,” right?

Martin sez:

Oops We lefties get the whole left and right thing messed up all the time.

For what it is worth, my son, and brother are left handed (is it genetic?), but I am definitely right dominant.

Martin sez:

In my family, the girls and I are all left handed. Poor Brian is the only right-hander in the house! He will grow up with an odd perception of right-handedness

Further confirmation from Jurvetson’s flickr:
“…They just upgraded me to Powertrain 1.5 and firmware 3.1.12
It’s much smoother and has the rail gun torque that I had read so much about. Also, the battery coolant pump now shuts down when parked (an irksome precaution in early models that is no longer needed)…”

Hi all, I am puzzled with this cooling problem in Tesla. As someone who had converted a few cars into electric (my hobby and a second job) and drive my own conversion for five years, I have never had this problem with the thunder batteries. And I am from Sydney, where the temps are predominantly medium-high year-round. My thinking is that the choice of batteries is the reason. With how-many-thousands of individual AAA batteries you are bound to have cumulative heating effect in a tight space.

To people I do connversions for, I suggest to go for larger cars to start with. Small cars are not suitable for electric systems. Sorry Martin, but the size of Tesla car is likely one of the major problems here, along with the number of batteries, in my experience. I just do not have that problem. Batteries exploding/burning randomly is another thing…

Martin sez:

I suggest reading the comments here. This is not a problem inherent in the batteries – it is a mistake made by Tesla, and one they have fixed with a recent firmware change.

By the way, the Tesla uses zero AAA batteries.

Hmm, what about using a temperature sensor to prevent unnecessary cooling? (e.g. someone in Alaska will need much less cooling than someone in San Diego)

Plus, maybe the guys at Tesla could come up with a system that combines the air conditioning with this battery cooling system (will save you some more electricity).